whom I talked on various subjects, and had reason to believe that it was Cicero.  Knowing that he was a wise man I talked with him about wisdom, intelligence, order, and the Word, and lastly about the Lord. [2] Of wisdom he said that there is no other wisdom than the wisdom of life, and that wisdom can be predicated of nothing else; of intelligence that it is from wisdom; of order, that it is from the Supreme God, and that to live in that order is to be wise and intelligent.  As to the Word, when I read to him something from the prophets he was greatly delighted, especially with this, that every name and every word signified interior things; and he wondered greatly that learned men at this day are not delighted with such study.  I saw plainly that the interiors of his thought or mind had been opened.  He said that he was unable to hear more, as he perceived something more holy than he could bear, being affected so interiorly. [3] At length I spoke with him about the Lord, saying that while He was born a man He was conceived of God, and that He put off the maternal human and put on the Divine Human, and that it is He that governs the universe.  To this he replied that he knew some things concerning the Lord, and perceived in his way that if mankind were to be saved it could not have been done otherwise.  In the meantime some bad Christians infused various cavils; but to these he gave no attention, remarking that this was not strange, since in the life of the body they had imbibed unbecoming ideas on the subject, and until they got rid of these they could not admit ideas that confirmed the truth, as the ignorant can.

323.  It has also been granted me to talk with others who lived in ancient times, and who were then among the more wise.  At first they appeared in front at a distance, and were able then to perceive the interiors of my thoughts, thus many things fully.  From one idea of thought they were able to discern the entire series and fill it with delightful things of wisdom combined with charming representations.  From this they were perceived to be among the more wise, and I was told that they were some of the ancient people; and when they came nearer I read to them something from the Word, and they were delighted beyond measure.  I perceived the essence of their delight and gratification, which arose chiefly from this, that all things and each thing they heard from the Word were representative and significative of heavenly and spiritual things.  They said that in their time, when they lived in the world, their mode of thinking and speaking and also of writing was of this nature, and that this was their pursuit of wisdom.